what bat the baltic states and russia? are we dealing with a state land here -- no, but just what is your feeling about the baltic states, which are precarious. a lot of russians moved up there during the soviet era. >> let me just start. if there's a move on the baltic states that is going to go way past serious. we have a military commitment to defend those states as a member of nato. we don't have a military guarantee for ukraine. but estonia? we own that problem. and attack on one is an attack on all and that will get military. >> that's exactly right. it's not no accident we don't have security guarantees for ukraine. we have what are called security assurances, something much weaker. but joe is right. at nato allies we have that commitment to the baltic states, and, again, there's been a certain amount of re-negotiating whether we should expand nato into that region, but we did, and now we have those commitments. so that would take us very quickly from the nuisance to the really quite serious level. >> okay. how abou